Intro

Welcome to Spock Talk! The podcast that explores:

• What’s the deal with Dr. Benjamin Spock?
• How did Baby and Child Care become the preeminent parenting guide of the 20th century?
• Who gets to tell parents how to parent?

I’m Deborah

And I’m Katie

We’re talking Spock because we want to understand what it is about Dr. Spock’s work that endures. Why is the Spock brand around, twenty-five years after Dr. Spock died?

Last episode we discussed Dr. Benjamin Spock’s political activism. And in this episode we are talking about his role as a famous public figure.

In the grand American tradition of celebrity-making, it’s a feedback cycle. Spock was one of those people who had something special. He had a unique perspective on parenting, he was a tremendously gifted communicator, the public gave him a lot of feedback, most of it positive.

And then, let’s be crass, he made a bunch of money and being Spock, the public persona, became his livelihood.

 I love that the trajectory was that he went from being famous for something very concrete - his hugely influential book - to just being a famous guy who knows stuff. It feels refreshing. We tend to skip the first step these days and let people just be famous for being famous.

In the 1950s, at the pinnacle of Dr. Spock’s fame, he reached “the highest form of celebrity bestowed in American culture: a household name.” Spock’s biographer Thomas Maier compared Spock to Kleenex, Frigidaire, and Campbell’s soup. We, in 2023, would call it a brand. And the Spock brand was synonymous with “raising children during an era more devoted to the practice than any other time” (Maier, p. 200). Parents referred to their children as ‘Spock babies’ 

In that post-World War II era, the U.S. was a superpower, it was a great time for national confidence and economic stability. It was a wonderful time in history to be a white middle-class American. From our historical perspective, when I look at cultural products from that time, the word that comes to mind is smug. Of course! We had it all figured out! We single handedly won World War II and proved capitalism’s superiority as an economic system and overall worldview, right? Elvis definitely invented rock ‘n roll and Ray Croc introduced America to the world’s best french fries. Hitchcock made his best movies IN AMERICA and Lucy and Desi proved that racism wasn’t a thing. The world should have looked up to us!

Needy ego:

Spock admitted that he had a needy ego. He really cared what people thought, especially when it came to the public perception of his family. Spock wrote that he had a lot of anxiety about his sons’ behavior. He thought that people would enjoy knowing if a famous child specialist didn’t have perfect children, or wasn’t a perfect parent. (Spock on Spock, p. 124)

Whereas today being the child of a psychiatrist is the butt of jokes. Of course they’re going to be the screwed up ones! But it does make sense. When something is your job, you want the world to see you as good at that thing in your personal life as well. I am the world’s least organized librarian, and it is a continual source of shame. We all know this pressure today in small ways - if only to present the perfect image of our families on social media.

And there was the real problem of Jane, too. When they lived in Pittsburgh, when Jane was hospitalized and diagnosed with schizophrenia, Spock, “kept a very distinct wall between his private problems and the affable, almost trouble-free persona he assumed for the public.” (Maier, p. 185).

Let’s sidetrack and talk, briefly, about religion here. It seems pretty strange, from our 2023 perspective, to have a hugely public person not have any ties to religion at all. Or is that weird? I feel like politicians ALWAYS have to perform religion.

Could religion have taken a backseat culturally because we were trying to emphasize America’s values of freedom and tolerance as opposed to the Soviets? And from a crass perspective, could it have taken a backseat for Spock because he wanted his book to appeal to the widest possible swath of middle class white america?

I think this is a historical difference. And a cultural difference, in that he was a New England elite. At one point, his son John, as a young adult, expressed resentment that his parents never taught him about religion (Maier, p. 334). Even though he wasn’t a church-going religious person, Spock was very concerned with morality and very very late in life he became interested in spirituality, through his second wife Mary Morgan. But for him, this wasn’t about mysticism, it’s about how to be a good person. Basically. When he talked about this, he mentioned aspects of life like “generosity, helpfulness, idealism…how you help other people with your job, how you help the world” (p. 447). Super sincere stuff.

And, by now, I’ve read a lot of his writing and I get the sense that he genuinely wanted to be helpful. He truly cared about babies, about children, and he did want parents to have a good experience, to succeed.

Okay. Back to fame. Even toward the end of his life, Spock remained, on the inside, an insecure and needy person. “Despite his public image of Dr. Spock as a friendly, gregarious sort…even at his advanced age, Ben remained full of nagging doubts and introspection…Though he had gained wide fame and influence, Ben still viewed himself as ‘underassertive’ with no best friends, not much different from the shy young man who hoped to prove himself at Yale” (Maier, p. 437).

Isn’t it a wider problem in American society that men just don’t have friends? Didn’t they make a whole comedy starring Paul Rudd about it? That men don’t have friendships because needing other people is perceived as inherently feminine and thus undesirable? I’m sad for Spock, but I wouldn’t say it’s a surprise he didn’t have a cadre of close male compatriots supporting him.

Limelight:

We talked in our Spock’s Women’s Group episode about how Spock and Jane would go out dancing, sometimes several nights a week, in the earlier years of their marriage when they lived in New York City. Jane would get tired and want to go home, but Ben would keep dancing with other women. (Maier p. 109). 

According to Maier, for Spock, the appeal wasn’t the other women. Rather, Spock craved the spotlight. Maier writes, “No one enjoyed these nights out more than Ben. Unlike other men, he liked to kick up his heels, throwing off the white physician’s coat and pin-striped suits to wear his elegantly designed tails and high-collar dress shirt. Ben fancied himself a dandy, the most popular dancer on the floor” (Maier, p. 107-8).
This quote has me picturing an elaborate dance sequence. Picture it: Spock takes center stage in front of the bandstand. Toe tapping, he slowly sheds his white lab coat to reveal a dapper suit. Gene Kelly style, he actually kicks up his heels and the music gets faster and faster as he leaps across the floor, tails flying behind him. I love it.

In Rochester, MN, when he was at the Mayo Clinic, he and Jane would socialize with the younger faculty members and wives, instead of the faculty of their generation. “At these dances, dressed in his favorite tails and high collar, Ben displayed his physical grace. Still broad-shouldered and athletically thin, he smiled radiantly with more self-assurance than he ever had shown as a young man, and exuded a healthy mature virility. [Jane] was the perfect partner, light on her feet and able to look adoringly at her husband as they waltzed across the floor….Those who remember the Spocks from these dances in Rochester always bring up their beautifully coordinated dancing” (Maier, p. 167).

It sounds like he really enjoyed the performance, being admired, having people look at him. (Maier, p. 182)

This is the dream of every awkward young person, right? That when you’re older, all those young people will see you were cool all along. You were just ahead of your time!

Judy, the family gossip daughter-in-law recalled how when she complimented her mother-in-law about the dance performance, Jane told Judy that Spock only treated her with affection and respect in front of other people (Maier, p. 182)

. Once again, poor Jane. She clearly didn’t get the same validation from this public adoration that her husband did, but he didn’t care!

He wasn’t a good first husband! And, although Spock was a wonderful parent educator, he was not the best parent. He was standoffish, not very affectionate, and overly critical, in part, because he had this public persona and credibility to uphold.

I read about how Spock and Jane got along with their kids as adults. In 1970. Judy and Michael lived in Lincoln, Massachusetts, outside of Boston, with their three kids. And Spock and Jane would stay with them during the trial, when Spock was indicted as part of the Boston 5. Judy told Maier that “Ben and Jane regaled them with charming tales about themselves but rarely inquired about the lives of Mike and Judy and their kids… (Maier, p. 332-333). Judy said, “‘They would tell you endless anecdotes about their own experience, pretty much designed to amuse or impress, and nothing very intimate’” and they never asked about Judy and Michael’s lives. “‘They appeared to have no interest in anything but themselves’” Judy goes on. (Maier, p. 333).

When so much of your life is chat shows and gladhanding, telling charming anecdotes to please the crowd, it must be hard to turn that off. That’s no excuse, obviously, but I can understand being slow to see that behavior interpreted as charming in one setting might be deeply frustrating in another.

Now, have you ever been in a social situation with, like, multiple sets of parents. And one of the dads is a stay-at-home dad?

No? Yes? No. I have actually never been in a social circle that included any stay at home dads. The closest I’ve come is having the occasional stay at home dad in my music classes.

So, I have been in this type of social situation before. And, even when there are multiple moms whose main role is caretaker, like they don’t work outside the home or they do very part-time work, I have observed that stay-at-home dads get an immense amount of credit and admiration and compliments. And people will say things like, “He’s a stay-at-home dad!” in a really gushy way. And women, who are more often in this role, it’s normalized for them, are often referred to as, “She’s just a stay-at-home mom” and, in a party-type situation, absolutely, the fact that any woman is a stay-at-home mom is never worth anyone’s time to comment on.

Where I’m going with this is, Spock, just by virtue of being a male in this baby and child space of the public sphere, gets the extra benefit of being male because it’s just ever so slightly unexpected that a man would be so good with kids. And he really is, and just looking at pictures and reading about anecdotes, he really is genuinely great with children and babies, he cares for them, he enjoys spending time with them, and he has a lot of empathy and good ideas.

on how the bar is low, in the 1900s, and now, for men who are good with kids to be perceived as heroes for something that’s kind of engrained into human DNA? Who doesn’t like a cute baby? I credit him for not coasting on his rep and for actually being good with kids, because you’re right. The bar was and is so low for men to get credit as “good dads” or for being “good with kids.” My husband took the kids alone to a birthday party last week, and I think he’s still glowing from all the praise he received.

Here’s another anecdote: I found an absolutely delightful article from the Saturday Evening Post published in 1966, when Spock was teaching at Western Reserve. He took ICE DANCING lessons three times a week on his lunch hour at the Cleveland Skating Club.

I NEED there to be video footage or at least pictures of this available somewhere.

Dancing and ice dancing are just one way that Spock gets the attention he needs. 

As Maier writes, “fame provided the emotional nourishment he needed” (Maier p. 211). 

Seeking the limelight is consistent throughout his medical career and his political activism.

Let’s listen to audio from a 1970 interview with Dr. Benjamin Spock by WOI-TV reporter Dorcas Speer, which is in the public domain, courtesy of the Iowa State University Archives.

[Speer: how do you manage to meet such a rigid schedule with enthusiasm. You don’t look tired or any of these things.

Spock: I’m terribly proud about this actually. Sometimes the executive director of the civil liberties legal defense fund, for whom I travel and speak and raise money, sometimes comes with me and he’s only twenty-five years old. And he keeps collapsing with exhaustion and I keep going on and on. Especially as you get older and older, you get prouder and prouder to be thought of as spry. Well, actually to be serious about it. One is, I’m mostly speaking about ending the war in Vietnam. And the right to dissent, which is absolutely a crucial subject that inspires me to go on and on. And the other part, and I think this is more important, is that young people. Think of me as their friend and they greet me enthusiastically. And the auditorium at Iowa State this huge beautiful auditorium was absolutely jammed right up to the rafters with students. And they gave me a standing ovation. I used to be just an ordinary professor in a medical school at Western Reserve Medical School, until I was forced by age to retire. Two years ago. I wasn’t particularly popular. Just an average professor. The kids find out what you’ve got to say, your limitations, your old stuff. Now I go from university to university only staying for one day. They assume that I’m on their side, their friend. Because I was indicted and convicted for resistance to the war. So I get these glowing noisy enthusiastic responses, and this is marvelous. How many old people in retirement can get a standing ovation every night. So this buoys me on. Then after I’ve done it for a month, then I suddenly realize I am a little wilted. And then I go off and I sail about in the Virgin Islands for a month.

Thanks to the Iowa State University Archives for preserving and making available that WOI-TV interview!

” Haha, of course people love me, they only see me for a couple of hours!

Yeah, this is pretty classic extrovert behavior, right? feeling really energized from the experience of being in front of an adoring audience.

Great public communicator and user of mass media:

Do you have any opinions about the journalist and bestselling author Malcolm Gladwell.

 I’m aware that he has a reputation for playing fast and loose with research, drawing sweeping conclusions without the necessary facts to back them up. But though I’ve never read his books, I am a fan of his Revisionist History podcast - his series on The Little Mermaid in particular was great and worth a listen!

(I have never read his books) but I listened to an interview with him about Dr. Spock and he talked about how there were three really famous doctors in the mid-twentieth century: Dr. Jonas Salk, the polio vaccine guy; Dr. John Rock, who invented birth control; and Dr. Spock.

The celebrity doctor, according to Gladwell, was a product of “middlebrow media culture,” popular magazines like Life and Time magazines. 

And Spock participated in this, like, feedback loop of fame. He wrote popular columns for Redbook and Ladies Home Journal.

Also, there’s his voice. At this point I’ve listened to lots of old Spock archival audio and he had that charming New England old money Brahmin accent.

He was an extremely willing participant in the entertainment industry. His IMDB page lists a number of cameos: He was on a TV series called Valentine’s Day in 1965, Good Company in 1967, on the Art Linklette Show, 1970, and on “Not For Women Only” talk show hosted by Barbara Walters, 1975

would love to see that I would definitely watch a show called “Not for women only” and I feel like this should also be the title of a category in Netflix. Like, gentlemen, you don’t have to take your wife’s word for it, you will like this even though the thumbnail image includes people kissing.

Also, and I think this is a big part of his appeal: he gave the impression of being very candid, very revealing about himself. And this impression of vulnerability is quite endearing. We know that there were aspects of his personal life that he was not candid about, that he actively worked to hide, namely Jane’s alcoholism and mental health issues. So he wasn’t entirely an open book. But he presented himself as if he were an open book, and I think this makes him very very appealing.

And, at that point in history, mid- and late-twentieth century, there really truly was mass media. There were a few television channels. There were a few national magazines. Things weren’t so segmented and chopped up into niche streaming platforms and websites and social media feeds. There simply weren’t as many choices. 
Think about one of the few experiences shared by almost every adult these days: standing in line at the grocery checkout counter (though even this is less true now that we have Instacart and self-check-out). But picture the magazine rack. On a good day, I know about half of the people on the covers? And they’re all “important” enough to merit a spot on a print magazine cover!

Ability to change:

Part of Spock’s appeal, I think, was his ability to change. One major example of this mutability is how he parented his two sons, who were born 10 years apart, very differently. John Spock, born in 1933, was raised in that Holt way, very strict behaviorist. And Michael Spock, the younger son, born eleven years later in 1944, when the Spocks were deep into authoring Baby and Child Care, was treated quite differently as an infant(Spock on Spock, p. 118)

An early review of the first Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care recognized that the book was not engraved in stone. The reviewer wrote, “[Spock] does not pretend to state the last word because he admits that the subject of infant and child care is likely to be changed as time goes on, just as it has been in the past” (Roti).

He was also open to feedback. There are a few instances where the advice in Baby and Child Care changed over time because of reader feedback.

This is terrible, the first edition of Baby and Child Care included a recommendation that parents who had a baby with Down’s Syndrome should send the baby away to live at a “special home” so that they don’t get too attached to, “a child who will never develop very far” (Apple)

But then, during the revision for the 1957 edition a mother wrote to Spock and urged him to change it. Because she had a child with Down’s Syndrome who was the joy of her life. And the 1957 edition is much more tentative about this issue, recommending that parents think about it and consult the advice of professionals and more, like, follow their hearts and their resources.

Pacifiers are another instance of how correspondence from mothers changed Spock’s mind. Spock solicited correspondence from mothers, when he had the Ladies Home Journal column. And reader feedback changed his recommendation about pacifiers. Because of compelling anecdotes by mothers who wrote to Spock, saying that pacifiers didn’t ruin their children.

 This seems very in keeping with his folksy image. The idea that science isn’t always the be all end all, but as he says in his book, parents should “trust themselves.” Even he trusts them sometimes!

Speaking of dubious health and wellness information, or disinformation: Spock reminds me of one of my most very favorite American celebrities, Oprah Winfrey, who was (and is) the ultimate master of reinvention. Spock, like Oprah, was self-reflective, self-deprecating sometimes, willing to apologize, and over the course of his life he really transformed.

she was so personal and vulnerable, but also in control of the public image of her. Similar to how Spock has this public-facing baby doctor persona. How willing is Oprah to actually apologize though? And how willing was Spock? Did he actually admit he was wrong, or did he just change the text? I wish Oprah were more apologetic for some of the harmful people she’s platformed over the years - Dr. Oz? Dr. Phil?

Judith Viorst, the author of Alexander and the Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Day, we talked about how they were colleague columnists for Redbook magazine, said, “Ben was a product of his time, like we all were. But his greatest ability is to rethink these things and to change” (p. 363). She also observed that some of his most “astonishing life changes” took place when he was over the age of 60

Some of his biggest critics changed their opinions of Spock. 

Even Gloria Steinem, who vilified Spock in the 1970s, changed her mind on Spock eventually, in the 1980s. She writes, “He’s proven to be a long-distance runner, who responded to criticism constructively and never lost his ideals”. And then--get this--Ms. Magazine lists him as a hero of the women’s movement in their tenth-anniversary issue. (Maier, p. 451).

What? That sexist dinosaur? So was Spock’s needy ego responsible for his parenting advice lasting 

And his need for an income. Which we’ll talk about next time!

We’ll probably never know whether his public persona was meticulously crafted, or if it was very sincere. But the point is, he had a very likeable, compelling public persona, which is a big part of why we’re talking about Spock twenty-five years after he died.

New Spock / Old Spock segment

Before we wrap up, let’s go to a segment we call “New Spock, Old Spock.” In this segment we’ll take a look at early Spock advice and see what has changed since the mid-1900s.

Since we’re talking about the ability to reinvent oneself, Spock’s very own diet changed a lot from his childhood oatmeal and stewed fruit days. At one point, he got into vegetarianism, and in his old age he was on a macrobiotic diet. Really, a lot has been written about this diet and it’s basically a Gwyneth Paltrow GOOP deprivation type brown rice and greens and miso broth diet (Maier, p. 445).

But in the original first edish of The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care, Spock wrote a couple of sections on including meat in babies’ diets. He wrote about canned meat soups, which sound disgusting. He wrote about “meat juice” and I don’t know why he didn’t call it broth.

Here’s a curious recipe for scraped meat:

“Start with beef. Buy a piece of top round, sear it briefly on all sides in a pan without grease. This sterilizes the surface and seals in the juices. It will be raw inside. Now, hold it firmly with one hand and scrape it ‘with the grain’ with a strong spoon. This removes the tender red meat and leaves the tough gristle behind. Flavor with salt. Start with a teaspoonful and work up to a couple of tablespoonfuls as the baby gets used to it.” (Spock, p. 174).

Does the 10th edition include any delicious-sounding recipes for scraped meat?

There is mention of delicious sounding “pureed meat,” but sadly no recipe is included. As with most things in the later editions, advice is far less black and white, and while meat is touted as a solid source of “concentrated nutrition,” parents are also warned of the dangers of e. Coli and other bacteria.

Tease next episode and Outro

Thanks for listening to this episode of Spock Talk! Please subscribe so you are sure to get our next episode, in which we’ll explore Dr. Spock’s personal finances.

See this episode’s show notes for our references.

If you like what you’re hearing, give us a like or a share on social media! Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts! Listen to our other podcast, It’s My Screen Time Too where we review TV shows and movies made for kids.

Special thanks to the Iowa State University Archives!

We’ll see you soon, the next time we Talk Spock!